60 - Anxious Kids and What Parents Can Do to Help: 4 Different Types of Anxiety

Do you have an anxious child?   Does it worry you or drive you crazy?  Either way you need to listen to this podcast!

Learn about the 4 different types of anxiety, then the 4 parenting traps that we fall into when we attempt to "help" that wind up having negative impacts.

• Being over reassuring
• Swooping in/Jumping in too soon
• Allowing avoidance
• Being too tough or critical

In this podcast, hear from Stephanie Pinto, founder of Let’s Raise Emotionally Intelligent Kids and author of the best-selling book From Chaos to Connection.   We talk about how parents can support their kids who have anxiety. 

Find Stephanie and her resources at www.Stephaniepinto.com. She’s amazing!

Here’s a link to her FACEBOOK and INSTAGRAM if you’d like to follow her. 

Email me at mary@parentingdecoded.com or go to my website at www.parentingdecoded.com.

Have a blessed rest of your day!

Transcript

 NOTE:  THIS WAS A RECORDED SESSION. THE TRANSCRIPT IS A BIT ROUGH.  SO SORRY!  

Welcome to Parenting Decoded for practical approaches to Parenting I'm Mary Eschen. 

Our society seems to be moving more and more in the direction of perfection.  Whether that makes any sense at all and believe me, I don't think it does.  It hits our kids earlier and earlier these days. This drive for high expectations puts a heavy burden on some kids that they become crushed with anxiety.  How can they ever live up to what's expected of them? I do think that all the helicoptering we do out of love can certainly cause more harm but some kids are just wired to be more sensitive to the pressures put on them even if it's not coming directly from us as parents. The question is what do we do as parents to help our kids become emotionally intelligent enough to work through their anxieties and fears so that they can keep moving ahead toward a fully lived life? 

In a previous podcast I spoke to therapist Jessica O’Connor about separation anxiety which usually hits kids from 1 to 5 years old.  We talked about how most of the time kids outgrow separation anxiety but sometimes it grows into something more permanent which is what I'd like to continue to explore in this podcast. I'm so happy to 

have Stephanie Pinto, founder of Let's Raise Emotionally Intelligent Kids and 

author of the bestselling book From Chaos to Connection. She's also a pediatric anxiety specialist and a former speech pathologist.  She's joining me from Sydney Australia where she lives with her family.  I've been following her work online for years now. I'm so happy she's agreed to delve into issues with anxiety and how we can better 

support our kids. 

Welcome Stephanie! 

Thank you so much for having me. 

M: This is such a tough topic but you are well-versed in all sorts of things as far as anxiety goes.   One of the things that I was talking to Jessica O’Connor about was the different types of anxiety.  You know what some indicators are that, as your kid moves 

maybe away from separation anxiety, how do you know that they have anxiety or they're different types and you know as they get older what are the red flags that you might look for? 

S: That's a very good question to start off with and I know you said I'm well-versed. There's multiple points in there you said I was well versed in an the anxiety space and my mind went straight to that's because I had a giant anxiety as kid. I've lived it. I sure might as well be an expert and I you know how we kind of sometimes think I wish I you know I I think oh I wish I had the this program and this knowledge that I have now back when I was a kid it would have saved me so many years? We each go through what we go through what we go through. I wouldn't be doing anxiety therapy for kids and teens now as part of my work if I didn't go through that.  You know it wouldn't be so important to me. I guess that's just as an aside but I totally I really feel parents who are sensing that their kids are anxious or wondering if there's anxiety and as you said there's a number of different anxiety type of conditions that come under the umbrella of anxiety disorder. You mentioned one of them which is separation anxiety and that tends to be in the younger kids.  Although having said that, I did probably two years ago work with a 14-year-old girl who had big separation anxiety from her mom in particular situation so that was that was really interesting and obviously challenging for her but we got through it and I was super proud of her. 

The separation anxiety is the first one specific anxiety. 

Specific phobia is another one so it might be a particular thing, it might be bugs. I just finished up working with a lovely young boy who had a particular fear of bugs and insects and spiders and stuff like that. That is the second type. 

Another one, third, so obviously social situation anxiety that was a big one for me I was constantly overthinking what are people thinking about me they're thinking I'm dumb why did I say that like I should have just kept my mouth shut you know all these really negative anxious thoughts it's obviously around social situations friendships and things like that. 

Generalized Anxiety Disorder is the fourth one sorry so obviously a general Warrior you know when parents say oh my kid just 

worries about everything and everything is hard too tough too tricky too scary 

you know so really sort of what I would call a general Warrior. 

 The fifth one people often don't realize it comes under the anxiety umbrella and definitely underpinned by anxiety, that's OCD so obsessive compulsive disorder.  I also just finished up working with a beautiful girl who was 15, She had almost like a bit of a spread of anxieties, some of them I would say generalized anxiety but some OCD around being clean. Her bed being clean.  Washing her hands and her face and things like that. You know we can have kids they don't have to fit into just one category.  Sometimes you know we're all unique and so are our kids. 

Mary: you talked about that there are the red flags or things to notice with anxiety. 

Stephanie:  We'll see with our kids there's kind of that tipping point, where it's so natural and normal to experience the human emotion of anxiety.  Right, you know an emotional intelligence. We talk about all the emotions being okay and natural and normal.  There's no good or bad but when that anxiety takes over and impacts so much that it means we're missing out on the things we want to do because we're too scared.   Or, the things we have to do because we're too scared and they're too hard so it might be going to a friend's house for a sleepover or doing that exam or test when that's really being impacted. That's when we know that we need to get some support and really  of get some strategies and come around for our child.  Because, like I said you know a little bit of anxiety is normal, and in the work I do I explain that to kids and parents and I say athletes and actors use anxiety to rev up and to do a good job and to perform and and it does make us study a bit more for that test or it does make us sort of assess the situation if we're unsure you know it's a bit new so it's normal to have a certain level of society what I would call like a a one or a two out of 10 but when it's like an 8 n 10 out of 10 and it's like I said stopping us from doing the things we have to do we're staying home we're avoiding we're not we're not going we're shutting down that's when we know wow okay we need some help here so okay so that's really the tipping point 

about are they stuck kind of yeah that's a good way to put it stuck at something so when you work with families over the years that you've worked with them are there certain factors that contribute to that rise in anxiety in the kids that you know maybe 

we'll be we're contributing to or things in there things that we might be able to 

stop doing yes maybe yes what can we do yes definitely so there are a few I guess sort of potential contributing factors that can create or give rise to anxiety in kids there is a 

moderate genetic sort of component so sometimes we do see it runs in families 

sometimes it's a person it's almost like a personality style or a trait if that makes sense so there is that element that can be whereas for me like I was anxious and yet neither of my parents were so can sometimes just a generation apparently come out of 

the blue learning experiences where a child has been through an event you 

know a dog has run up to them and bitten them or scared the life out of them or they've been in a car accident things like that those frightful scary anxiety inducing uh 

experiences can definitely almost like teach a child the world is a scary 

place so can be those learning experiences as well stressful events but sometimes it's us it's what we're seeing around us with what other sometimes how our parents are responding to different situations you know friends or siblings and things like that that can also impact the way a child will I guess what I want to say like the lens through which they see the world if my mom is terrified of dogs and we go for a walk and she says oh quick you know cross the road or oh come stay close and I see that  around in my neighborhood because we have particular different cultures around here in in where I am in Sydney and there are some families who are you know they're not raised with 

pets and things like that and I can see even adults we used to have a dog for a few months ago unfortunately she passed away but we when we were walking her we would see some people adults look a little bit terrified I want to say AC cross the road and walk on the other side and and you know me doing what I do I was like well they're obviously you know not not feeling confident even though she was on a lead and so on so can be sort of those experiences and watching people around us if they're modeling anxious behaviors or avoidance or fear than we like that says to us oh there is 

something to be scared of so that can contribute too if that makes sense yeah 

I was I was kind of wondering like I work with some parents I coach some 

parents who are a bit anxious themselves and they they make things very reluctant 

like oh you can't go outside without a coat if it's cold you can't you know they the the anxiety is that their kids are going to get too cold too hot that it's too hard to bike you 

know if they're going to go on a bicycle they have to be fully geared up which believe me I believe in safety for bicycles and stuff almost to the point where it's hard to go because they're the parent is so reluctant and so I see that as contributing to anxiety but then I also see some other parents who they recognize there's anxiety and they're 

like where did that come from because like your parents probably dealing with you is like we're not anxious what the heck and one of the things that I when my boys were in high school there's lots of peer pressure that creates anxiety in the kids even if the parents are saying you're G to go to college don't worry so much about grades 

your grades are fine you're getting let's say you're getting B's instead of A's or you know there's a super pressure where they went to ever have all only A's and stuff like that it's like you know you can have C's and still go to college and at least in the United States and but the culture keeps putting this pressure on them and a lot of the 

kids they take in that anxiety like I got to get all as and they get stuck 

and they can't have fun they can't do much of anything and even if the parents are going like it's okay all their peers are doing the same thing so the trauma can be induced by peers as well as parents because I think a helicopter parents can create that fear too but one of the things that I wanted to discuss with you is you know and I was reading your book about you know learning more about emotional intelligence and sort of watching for triggers and stuff like that can you explain the approach that you work with families to deal with that anxiety definitely so it is really I think important for parents to understand that sometimes we can fall into what we call the parenting traps of 

anxiety of parenting an anxious child and so I talk about four really common 

um pitfalls I guess or traps that parents of anxious kids can sometimes we 

just unconsciously without realizing we're doing some of these things which are maybe maintaining the anxiety or maybe even making it worse and it's not that we ever plan to you know parents never would want to add to a child's anxiety of course they it's coming from a good place you know they're doing it from their heart and they're trying to support and help their child who is anxious but we don't realize you know some of the I think the next steps that are happening when we do these traps so let me go through the four of them I'm I want I we've all been there so trap number one is providing too much reassurance or over reassuring an anxious child because of course the number one our are probably going to be seeking reassurance if it's about a test or a friends or a swimming pool or a dog or you know they asking where are we going to go who's going to be there is it going to be okay am I going to what are we going to do blah blah blah so our kids can sometimes try and um get that reassurance from us but the thing is the more we give it the more we're reinforcing that message of you're 

only okay because I'm here and I'm saying it's okay and you're not capable on your own you're not capable to handle this you know without my reassurance you're learning that if I say it's okay then yes it is rather than them finding out a little bit about you know what can I do on my own and is it as bad as I think and so where they start 

to process it themselves I'm going to Susie's house what is it that's going to happen at Susie's house and going to have a sleepover so we can help them do that but in a certain way that one of the big proponents of the program that I do is helping our child to come to their own conclusion that the thing or the place is safe and that they can cope 

um and that maybe it's not as scary as they think and they do have some capabilities or you know some coping 

skills so when we over reassure which is that first trap we're saying it's fine 

everyone you know everyone who's going to be there it's going to be such a great time it's a party you're going to have fun or it's a pool there's so many 

you know teachers in there as soon as you jump in they'll catch you.  you'll do your lesson you know it's so safe blah blah blah.  We are often over reassuring and we think it's helping our child but really for the anxious brain it's like a little trampoline it goes boing it just bounces off because their brain is going: “No! no! no! I can't!” They're in fight and flight mode and so they can't process it.  Yes, exactly.  

so you're advocating that pushing that onto the kids so that they have to calm their brain and think about the steps okay that's Trap Number One really good some of us might be guilty of that.  Yes it's such a common one often have to gently pull parents up on 

doing that because it can it just comes naturally: “You're going to be fine.  It's okay.”  You know.  That's something we have to be mindful of that it's not helping and actually if I just say one final thing on it can go as far as the child making the child or the teenager feel like you don't get it no I'm not going to be fine this is too hard I can't go it's tough like why are you saying it's so easy like you don't get me you don't get it so they're feeling really unheard and invalidated so we don't want to do that as well okay well that's a great point and I think it's super easier for parents when they're in a rush when they don't really they're tired of hearing I don't want to go you don't especially for teen when you get to that teen stage where the teen just shuts you out then because they know that Mom or Dad does doesn't understand where they're coming from okay well that was a trap one trap one trap number two is when we jump in too soon or as I like to say we swoop in so parents will you know when the child is demonstrating some anxious behaviors or you know saying that they're a little bit worried or I can't do it it's too scary their the parents will swoop in and they will maybe take over or they'll change the situation or they'll say they'll do some reassurance but essentially it's the let me help you with that okay come on let's do it together we're swooping in we're not giving the child time to experience that little bit of discomfort or that anxiety and then helping them navigate through it with some strategies which obviously we you know to be learned but jumping into soon can really prevent the child from learning that oh it it isn't quite as scary or as hard as I thought I don't like it but it's not a disaster or oh maybe I could I can last in the classroom for a little bit before I start to get really scared you know it's not as not as scary or not as bad as I thought and maybe my I can cope a little bit better than I thought does that make sense so we're only by so one of the 

strategies and the work I do is to allow your child just a little bit like we 

find out where that is to sit in the situation just long enough for them to 

have a bit of that learning and a bit of that realization and we coach them through that and afterwards we say wow you know you were you sat by the pool for 2 minutes before we came back and sat you know you sat on the side with me or you know you petted that dog once before we came back and we you know we'll try again tomorrow so really 

giving them that opportunity to learn a little bit about the situation and their own skills before pulling them out so that's I guess that's how we're flipping that jumping in too soon don't jump in too soon okay there's two the Trap number two. 

Third one is allowing avoidance and we know that when we allow the avoidance it actually keeps the anxiety going it maintains it so there are sometimes subtle things sometimes obvious things that parents even teachers can do and it's really accommodating or allowing that avoidance it might include things like allowing a child to take a day off school speaking for them not asking them questions taking them home early or giving them alternative activities to do even things like turning off the news 

working extra hard to make sure nothing goes wrong so lots of ways in which sometimes we are over accommodating because again it comes from a good place in our heart we don't want to see our child anxious it pulls on our heartstrings so but yeah 

the thing is that we know that the more we I mean me as an adult the more I avoid something like doing my taxes or God like it just creates this whole thing in my brain. I'm like, I can't you know, I really don't want to do it! And then I finally get it done and I'm like oh God, it took me 10 minutes! What was I so worried about.   You know right?  You can still keep practicing this on yourself.  

Mary:  well, the first three traps certainly sound to me like a helicopter parent. You know one I was really good at -- being a helicopter parent!  It was out of love absolutely.  I was calm and I was just trying to make life good. I wasn't pulling my kid out of school and stuff like that.  My son didn't have huge anxiety but there were times where I was stepping in way too much. Luckily in middle school I learned some new techniques and really made a difference so that my kid could learn all those problem-solving skills. 

Stephanie: Number four,  this is our last trap for parents and it's actually quite different than the first three.  it's being too tough on our kids. I think a lot of parents will resonate with this.  If they have an anxious child or teen, it's kind of the moment where you've been dealing with it for so long. You know that your child is capable and that there's nothing scary. They'll get through it. You know nothing bad will happen.  We get to that really frustrated stage where we're like, just do it!  You're being ridiculous! I don't care! Get in the car or get to school! You know we get really frustrated.  We get triggered because we have this greater awareness that by the time you get to school within 10 minutes you calm down you're going to be fine.  You’ll end up loving it and your friends are there.  We have that awareness plus we we're not anxious ourselves.  Most of the time we can start to be too tough, too critical.  We sometimes parents think you know it's good to toughen up their kids. To make them face their biggest fears straight away just like you drop them in the deep end.  That's exactly where I was thinking dropping,  So the thing is, if we push them too far, too soon, they can become so anxious that they avoid the situation even more.  It's like you've dumped them in that thing that is so scary, without any skills. They freeze up, like you said before, they go into fight or flight and everything all that logic rational thinking is shut off. They're just in that fear. So we don't want to sort of throw them in the deep end.  We don't want to also because we're human we don't want to be too harsh and too critical.  We don’t want to get to that point where we say things like: you know stop being a 

Baby!  you're being ridiculous!! I don't care anymore! you know we've been here for two years and you're still XYZ! 

Kids are not choosing to be anxious. They're not choosing to live in this constant state of like fight or flight where they're constantly worried and they're overthinking. They're scared it's not a nice place to be.  I have been there. As much as possible if we can bring empathy and compassion and patience and tolerance and equip ourselves with some strategies and problem-solving skills to help our kids rather than falling into one of those traps things can get better.  It's a tough place to be for any parent whatever, whichever of those four traps we fall into.  I think every parent with an anxious kid falls into one of those out of love or frustration.  

Mary: What have you seen work? The thing that's on my heart is because I live in the Bay Area in California the overly anxious parents and kids that have to do with grades and getting into the right college and stuff like that, have you counseled some, coached some people in how to use techniques to get that peer pressure and the parental pressure, societal pressure, how to temper that? 

Stephanie:  you know what I just I was working with a girl even just yesterday.  We did a session and I was, come on, you know we've done several sessions and I'm still explaining to her there are probably a number of other kids in your class at school who feel exactly the same or go through very similar feelings and anxieties.  Yet you would have no idea because no one talks about it and they don't talk about it. It’s kind of normalizing that pressure and the feeling of anxiety. The perfectionism I've got to do it. I think if we can have open conversations about that with kids, if we can normalize it then it just opens the door to getting some help and support. It's not so much like oh I need to get a therapist you know anything bad.  I think having conversations and normalizing just treating that as I said with emotions.  There's no good or bad emotions they're all they're all natural they're all healthy they're all very helpful obviously we need to learn how to deal with them and navigate through some of the more tougher or more uncomfortable ones. I think if we normalize it then we open that doorway to getting some help and knowing I need to learn about this because I don't want to keep stuck. I don't want to stay in this place. You know I often say parents are the best people to initially teach their kids and have conversations and open their minds to things like this. Yes, there are therapists, there are coaches and they're amazing people. You know I work with families myself but I just think that it's so powerful for parents to build their own capacity to know how to deal with things when their child is feeling XYZ whatever it is, right? Show we can help them through.  They trust us if we have that good connection that relationship that trust and the vulnerability that you know we've been through some of these we've felt all of the emotions that our kids have felt we might not have had anxiety about this particular situation but I have felt anxiety and I have felt disappointment and hurt and anger you know so I think 

if we can more come alongside our kids and support them you know keep those 

keep those conversations happening open their eyes to the fact that there's a lot of other kids with these pressures some of them are getting help for it some of them might not be and you know as a family unit this is this is our culture we talk about it it's normal we get help we you know do the best we can I think it's just too risky to think well I don't know what to do I don't have the skills like I'm just going to you know it's normal everyone has this pressure everyone's getting into the best college and getting Chism I'm like no can we please get like step out of that River do you know what I mean so I think that it sounds to me like being able to build that relationship with our kids so that you can problem solve with them when they come up against an anxiety whether it's what college they you know how well they do in school or whether it's bugs or whatever being able to step back and keep calm you wrote a a really wonderful book on emotional intelligence and you know how do we get our triggers and our kids triggers understand that and hopefully maybe someday we'll have a 

future podcast to explain more of that but I just love how it's possible for 

parents to help their kids with anxiety and it requires us to view it as a 

problem to be solved and not a not a medical diagnosis that's 

unchangeable yes definitely I think if I can share a quick story a success story from I'd like that I I have a couple but I'll tell them really quickly. I had a young boy who had a huge fear of you know bug spiders all those things I mentioned before. He could not at like I didn't even mention in the first session of 10 I do a 10 week 

program you know that we would be maybe looking at and touching live bugs cuz that was just Way Beyond you know 

when kids can't fathom that they're going to be able to change you don't want to ruin them so they don't come and in the last session he was holding a jar with the lid off with a bug inside he was you know I said how about you hold it and you can walk 

around the lounge room come back you can look at it we'll talk about it you know he didn't go quite as far as touching it because he was just not you know that was that was like just the next step but in the 10 weeks I said and I said to him do you ever think you could have done that you know all those weeks ago when we started and he was like no way no way I like I would have I would have ran out the door and I was like so 

and he you know I could see I could see in him he was calmer like physiologically he felt more in control, more confident and new like this is the thing we're rewiring those circuitries and those pathways is the anxious kind of loops in the brain and now he knows it isn't it isn't scary they can't bite me they can't hurt me I am safe you know it's all those kind of thoughts anyway that so that was really exciting we had a big a big last session which was which was really cool to see and another young girl who was a what I would call a general worrier so generalizing anxiety about everything and her mom 

messaged me a few just a few weeks after the our last session she still keeps me 

in the loop now which is awesome and she said my daughter has now joined the choir she's also gone on to like a regional netball team through her school so she's not just doing school netball she's now doing another like outside of a Regional School one and she also has just said that she wants to join after many years of not being able 

to a dance like a dance school outside of you know after school dance group and I was like oh my God what happened to this girl like she was a mouse you know she was she would do anything oh no like and I saw a lot of her a lot of me in her because I was like oh yes I totally get this and then just a few weeks later she messaged me and I thought oh my God who is this little girl now like were there any were there any key factors that led to that like any one you know like a tipor two that you used on her that you know that you gave the parents her the biggest thing and one of the biggest there are two kind of big proponents or pieces to the program I do it'sunderpinned by CBT so cognitive behavioral therapy and the cognitive part is obviously rewiring the thoughts 

the cognitions the anxious thoughts into more calm and realistic thoughts so that's a big that's a big piece there they're calm thoughts but they're more realistic because before or they were negative scary and unrealistic you know she would think everyone's going to laugh at me something bad will happen I 

won't even score a goal it will be terrible blah blah blah so helping her 

to as I said before gently pulling her awareness to the fact that those 

thoughts and worries she have she has very rarely come true and actually aren't realistic and when we find what we call lots of evidence about the situation let's say playing netball or getting up on stage doing a speech or 

doing an exam when we find out lots of evidence about what's happened in the past in similar situations what generally happens or what usually happens to other people what's most likely to happen what are the facts about the situation when we kind of get all of that information and we flood a page with it then she started to go no one ever has laughed at me when I've done a speech or I always have scored a couple of goals in the net ball game I've never scored zero so we start to kind of bring her awareness to the fact that what you're thinking actually often doesn't come true and it leads her to a different conclusion that she will you know be okay it might be a little bit scary but she'll be able to cope it'll not be as bad as she thinks and what will what's more likely to happen in whatever situation it is so we we're kind of doing that restructuring where it just starts to basically change her mind about situations so sounds like in her case she started she did you got her to the point where she was able to make a step and she got successful enough so that she did the next step and then you know she you said she was going to do the dance thing as the third next step and just like and I mean our kids self-worth and self image impacts them and I think kids who have a lot of anxiety do have a a warped sense of self-image that we have to basically help teach them how to bolster it and you know I just I'm just thankful that there are folks like you 

around that can help families who have a kid who's stuck and one of the things that we were talking about I know that you have a program I'd love for you to describe it a little bit and to let people know can they work with you when you're in Australia tell me about that tell me a little bit about what you could do with families yes so the main program that I do is one called the cool kids anxiety program and it was created by the 

psychology team at Macquarie University over here in Sydney that's a very prestigious University here and it's highly evidence-based they're still doing a lot of research on the program people can be part of it as they go through the program if they like so it's very strong in terms of its evidence and its validity and reliability and things like 

that and they've got some incredible statistics I think it's something up around 60 something percent of kids who complete the program will lose their primary anxiety diagnosis if they have one whereas most parents I see their kid doesn't have an anxiety diagnosis they haven't bothered but they know their child is anxious I'm like cool let's do it so and obviously a big a big percentage of a drop in anxious behaviors and and things like that and so it's a 10 session program I do it here in Sydney you know when it's close enough to me because I actually like to travel out to the family home do it in the living room because their child is anxious so that's just a really nice way to do it but I also do it via Zoom you know online as well so and I've had families from all around the world we just work out the time difference and we can do it and I can post out there are 

two little two manuals or workbooks that go with program a parent one and a 

child one and we go through the activities it's very structured it's very it's very easy to complete and I obviously coach them through and we work through it together so it's a parent and child program because obviously we need the parents on 

board to support them you know parents are around their kids and experiencing the anxiety with their kids a lot of the time so like that the parents are involved and there's we we obviously tailor it to the goals of the child. We get into that in week two and it's just a great program and it will cover many different types of anxieties, yes, any of the five.  

Mary: Any! Awesome! 

Well that's so awesome I'm going to put your resources in the podcast notes on how to get a hold of you because I think that you do amazing work. I'll also put a link to your book From Chaos to Connection 

I just really want to encourage parents if you have kids who need help with their anxiety 

and you have been struggling there are programs throughout the world Stephanie's is one of them.   I think she's a great resource I'd si